Theology, Relationship, and Donald Miller: A Rant

Donald Miller has become something of a phenomenon, especially with the publication of his massive best seller a few years back, Blue Like Jazz. Dont get me wrong I actually really like Donald Miller, I think he does and says a lot of good things and hes a very smart and genuine guy who I had the pleasure of meeting along with Brian Mclaren a few years ago. His writing is even pretty good in that post-modern stream of consciousness type way which adds to that mystique he produces of authentically living out ones faith. Thats why it irritates me when he gets sloppy. Hes so much better than that. In a recent article (available here: http://donmilleris.com/ entitled "Having right theology does not mean you know God") Miller makes the fairly standard case against "right theology" as opposed to "right relationship" with God. I can certainly resonate with many things that he says, and I think that messages such as this are always important to be reiterated because of the dangers present by anything which we can use to make into an idol. Like Luther said, the mind of man is a factory of idols, and it is one that constantly needs to be purged, and we are in constant need of repentance. That said though, several problems crop up in the article which I think hinder Miller's overall good message.

A minor quibble that I have with most all writing in this trendy Christian pomo genre, namely that they have this air about them of discovering something fundamental about Christianity that has lain long dormant and is only now being re-emerging through their work (a similar reason why I dislike the label "emergent church" despite the many good things that go along with the movement). Like that guy who shows up to a party really late and then claims all the awesome stuff that was happening in his absence was somehow due to him, the popularizers of pomo Christianity like Mclaren and Miller get a lot of the credit when others did a lot of the work. But aside from this small irritation, I would say my major complaint is how Miller simply begs the question in this article about what theology is, about how relationship is coordinate with theology, and about the major point about Christianity being a relationship with Christ. Right away we see his article is entitled "Having right theology does not mean you know God." Before getting into the substance of the article (of which the title is an apt summary) we need to immediately ask a very, very important question which bears on Miller's entire thesis: what is right theology? From the outset Miller seems to assume (given his title) that one can indeed have right theology without knowing God. But, subtle though this is, it sets up the premise of the entire article, namely that theology is something different than knowing God even if only slightly, or that fundamentally speaking theology can be right without such a true knowing of God. But this has simply perpetuated a dichotomy that Miller appears to want to overcome. And in another sense this appears to allow Miller to set up a straw man to beat the hell out of. Let me explain.

On the surface of course it seems to be correct that theology does not save: my theological leanings towards five-point Calvinism, neo-Orthodoxy, nouvelle theologie, Amyraldianism, or any other "obscure" codification of Christian beliefs isnt what saves me. God sending his Son to live, die, and be resurrected, to proclaim the kingdom of God, is what saves me. But can one really dichotomize this with theology? Or in other words can I have a saving relation with the Triune God through Christ and the Holy Spirit that is somehow non-theological? This is indeed what Miller appears to be saying, as according to his title one can have right theology without knowing God, which means that the theological task could in fact be complete ("right") and yet one still does not know God. But this sets up the split right away and defines the task of theology in such a way that even in its completeness it is not dealing with relation. This indicates that the task of theology is slightly different than a relation to God, it has a discrete area which Miller has cordoned it off into. To assert the difference between theology and God's action to save us or our relationship to him is to assert--however implicitly--that God's action to save us can be known of otherwise than in a theological manner. In this instance then theological knowledge, or what theology is, is somehow different from a "pure" relationship. To put my cards on the table right away, this is a profoundly odd way to treat the term "theology" which literally means knowing God, or having God's "logos." Why then does Miller start prying apart theology from relationship?

Miller for example says that knowing God is relational and here comes his key: "It is not theological or intellectual any more than marriage is theological or intellectual." But at this initial juncture is where he again becomes very sloppy. Did you catch what he did? He has equated theology with "intellectual." Suddenly knowing God, which is relational, is not "theological or intellectual any more than marriage is." This means in having a relation to God, there is an excess that is non-theological, meaning we might assume that this excess is coextensive with the excess of any relationship beyond intellectual relation. That is to say now Miller's argument hinges around this analogy: relation to God is in excess of theology as having a relation to your spouse is beyond merely knowing about your spouse. So certainly he is saying there are intellectual and theological aspects of marriage, but there is also a surplus to that, namely that which goes beyond theology or intellect. Here we see what is probably the inner logic of his title "Having Right Theology Doesnt Mean You Know God," because now knowing God is something beyond theology ("knowing God" here is of course something beyond mere intellectual knowing). It seems, however, that an excess can be located beyond theology only because Miller has now implicitly defined theology as a merely intellectual endeavor. This of course is exactly what I have a problem with which we will get to in a second.

"But surely," some who have read the article will reply, "Miller makes it very clear that he is not casting out theology, merely resituating its purpose." And in a certain sense I agree. It would help us here to quote Miller at length:
….and through a dark night of the soul, I came to realize salvation happens through a mysterious, indefinable, relational interaction with Jesus in which we become one with him. I realized Christian conversion worked more like falling in love than understanding a series of concepts or ideas. This is not to say there are no true ideas, it is only to say there is something else, something beyond(!). There are true ideas involved in marriage and sex, but marriage and sex also involve something else, and that something else is mysterious.

If we have a controlling personality, in which we like to check things off of lists, this is going to be extremely hard for us to understand and embrace. God give us no control, really, over this “system” of relationship. Introducing somebody to Jesus is not about presenting ideas, then, as much as it is introducing a person to a Deity who lives and interacts. Evangelism, then, looks like setting somebody up on a blind date: God does the work, we just tell them about him and where they can find him.

You might be getting upset by this. You might think I am saying truth should be thrown out, that theology doesn’t matter. But this is not what I’m saying at all. What I’m intending to illustrate is our drive to define God with a mathematical theology has become a false God rather than an arrow that points to the real God. Theology can become an idol, but it is more useful as guardrails on a road to the true God. Theology is very important, but it is not God, and knowing facts about God is not the same as knowing God.


Here again we see how Miller is implicitly defining theology over against relationship. Theology means "a system" a way to "control"; "understanding a series of concepts or ideas"; to "check things off lists"; it is "mathematical" etc (perhaps this is the perfunctory potshot at Descartes that all edgy pomo theologians need to take, Im not sure)... and can be summarized by the last statement of the paragraph quote again reiterating what I have been interpreting Miller to be saying: "knowing facts about God is not the same as knowing God." But if this contrast is the same as the title "Having right theology doesnt mean you know God," (and I would argue it is) then "right theology" to Miller is only "knowing facts about God." This is why Miller's resituation of theology as "guardrails on a road to the true God," is actually not at all moving beyond the "Modern" definition of theology as a series of factual statements about the divine. Because remember what Miller defined a true relation to God as: the excess beyond theology. But there is a beyond only because he has accepted the truncation of theology itself to mere intellectual facts. But why should we limit the realm of theology in this way? And in fact it is interesting that Miller appears to lump all of theology together as a whole, it is a homogenous enterprise apparently that admits of no gradation of importance. But surely the theological enterprise is not only different than Miller has represented it, but more internally varied than he allows. There are things within theology more or less immediately relevant. But once Miller has cordoned off theology as something that relationship is in excess to, all of theology, as matters of intellectual propositions, appear to be equally relevant as truth-telling propositional facts. Thus Millenialism becomes as important as Incarnation or Trinity, because they are all merely facts, and again all are, to Millers mind, something different than relation. Miller assumes the validity of this definition and thereby says the only way to get beyond it is to define an area of excess beyond theology in which we have a true relationship to God. And yet as I said above this is a completely flabbergasting definition of theology and of a proper relation to God, consider that the original definition of theology was in fact to have a right relation to God's "logos." (theo-logy). Miller is in fact NOT postmodern AT ALL in his definition (though of course he doesnt here claim to be), but rather assumes the Modernist definition and only tries to move beyond by simply moving farther down the spectrum set up by this definition in the first place, rather than truly moving beyond it.

So to summarize: I do not at all disagree with Miller that theology can become an idol, that we can use it to define who is in or out, or internalize our knowledge in such a way as to become arrogant. These are all excellent points that, however tired we may get of them, never lose their edge. Yet what is completely unacceptable is Miller's definition of theology itself, as somehow over and against relationship. If theology is merely the guardrails to our relationship to God, then our relationship to God is, ironically enough, to Miller not theological in the proper sense, since theology is merely at the periphery or the "edges" of the relation, like banks of a river guiding it towards its destination. But banks, of course, are not the river itself. But the definition of theology is SO much broader than this, and I would argue it covers ALL aspects of our lives. What Miller actually does is perpetuate the separation of theology from everyday life that is so prevalent these days. As in my last post, when people ask "how is theology relevant to my day to day life," the question assumes in advance that our day to day lives are self-evident, or the way they should be, and only then does theology relate to it. Similarly Miller assumes a relation to Christ is a self-evident principle that is only tangentially related to theology. I would argue however that this misses the entire point: relationship to Christ is in fact the entire point of theology, and to say that relationship is beyond, or theology is only a guardrail to it, is to simply beg the question of what a relationship to Christ is in the first place. Hes made us run in a giant circle. We need to completely overcome the notion that theology is merely a repository of factual statements about God and recover the idea that all areas of life, our relationship. There is in fact, I would argue NO non-theological area of life AT ALL. All activities, concepts, relations, emotions, to your spouse, your friends, your family, society, or whomever, are all caught up within complex webs of semiotics or sign-systems which give them meaning. As a Christian the proper reading and formation of these semiotic systems of meaning, or what is often called "discipleship," is not somehow nontheological or beyond theology. Miller's solution then would be completely different: we could not ever say that someone has a right theology but still does not know God. Even if they affirm 5 point Calvinism (or whatever) on the surface they have missed the point entirely of what theology is doing and so in fact do not at all have "right theology." Theological debates about truth have often limited truth to mere proposition, but performance based operation of themes and worldview have always been a necessary component of doctrine. All our actions are based on systems of ideas, and doctrine in this instance is a control concept for Christians, our relation to Christ. Having a relationship to Christ as a new believer and not knowing of the doctrine of the Trinity or that double predestination was condemned at the Council of Orange in 529, but that does not mean the young believers relation to Christ is non-theological. It is theological by definition because in the relation he is attaining a knowledge of God which is constantly being refined.

In other words everything in the entire universe is discursive in some way or another, and it is the claim of Christian theology that Christ is the key to reading the book of the universe, as He is the vehicle through which God the Father created it. People who take up their crosses and follow Christ are, in the words of John Howard Yoder, "working with the grain of the universe." The Modernist definition of theology as a series of facts about God to be memorized and employed as a litmus of orthodoxy has forgotten that the true action of theology is to understand and act to reform the entire world in the light of God's redemption in Christ. These means that understanding our physical lives, our relations to others, our emotions and affections, our relation to government, our proclamation of the gospel, our "authenticity" as people--all of these are always already and at all times theological concepts. This is why theology is so important: BECAUSE EVERYONE IS ALREADY DOING IT WHETHER THEY ACKNOWLEDGE IT OR NOT. Hence it is fairly comical when at the end of the article Miller says "Would you do me a favor as you read this book? Would you be willing to grow and expand your understanding of God and how He works? If your understanding of Christianity is relatively conservative, it may surprise you that our theology is remarkably similar. It’s just that I am going to continue to pull power and beauty away from facts about God and give them to God himself." What else could we define "expand your understanding of who God is an how he works" but as theology? Yet the irony is precisely that Miller has shrunk this understanding because it has artificially isolated and bifurcated our lives into nice neat components: theological and otherwise. Moreover the act of "giving them to God himself" is still a theological act. The only way we could know that Miller was giving them "to God himself" as opposed to facts about God is an act of our knowledge of God. Of course God is the one who reveals and gives this knowledge and we are wholly reliant upon it. But thats what makes it theological. Certainly one can affirm with Miller that God Himself, and not our systems, are what is due glory and honor. But when Miller says he [Miller] is giving this glory to God, is Miller not himself setting up a system of understanding, a theology? Hence when Miller says that the fact is its God's glory rather than God's glory is in the facts, its really not so much an impressive revolution of authentic Christianity so much as it is a mere revision of syntax.

This is why Miller's solution is unfortunately entirely inadequate because it is simply ignoring reality. Theology itself is an act of relationship, of discipleship, and of purification. Certainly we can get carried away with theology in the sense that an Arminian will exclude a Calvinist, or vice versa, but this does not then mean authentic relationship with Christ is non-theological or "beyond theological" as Miller has it. This simply assumes that the term 'relation" or the concept of "your relation to your spouse" is somehow more basic and less theological than predestination or some other doctrine considered obscure. But again this is simply to limit the terms of theology. If we as Christians claim to know the one God through Christ and the Holy Spirit, theology, as I said at length in my last post, must be a foundational and universal discipline, controlling and influencing all other information, or it is a delusion. Doctrine is not merely a series of facts, but it is elaborating upon the structure of the universe, of man and our relation to God, of history, of politics, of ethics, and of the world.

Miller wants to reform us by the right intuition that we must repent of our intellectual idols and turn to a correct relationship to Christ, proclaiming Him to the world. I wholeheartedly sympathize with Miller's questions about "can a Christian have bad theology and still be saved?" but his question is asked within the context that theology is mere belief or intellectual assent to propositions. When asked in this way the question is set up in advance for someone to say "oh I guess your right, I dont know everything but am still saved." but at the same time quite frankly we also need to heed Paul's exhortations and warnings which are frequent in his epistles, against false doctrines. Why? Because Paul was adamant that doctrine produces action, that action intimates and reflects doctrine, that all action and relation are always already encoded in worldview. It is not so much that Doctrine must be made relevant to life, or how our relation to God exceeds doctrine, but how all of these things are already reflected in our understanding, where they are inadequate and in need of revision, and where when we think things are obvious, like Christianity being a relation to Christ, how this is already encoded into a wider system of beliefs which are constantly in need of reformation and repentance. To move forward is not to treat theology as merely guardrails at the periphery, so we are moving to a place beyond theology, but to understand our journey as theological itself, so that all areas of our lives are an act of discipleship to Christ.

Comments

Eddy said…
Very well reasoned argument here. I am a big Donald Miller fan, but feel that he misses the point by assuming that theology and relationships are mutually exclusive. Right theology makes room for love and relationships. Theology that does not do this is not right theology.
Derrick said…
Thanks for the kind words Eddy. I agree, I too am a fan of Donald Miller, he is a great guy and a very passionate Christian. That article unfortunately was just not his best work.
Maggery said…
it reminds me a little of something Lewis said through Screwtape in The Screwtape Letters - in every era the demons try and warn the Church against (real) dangers which are the opposite dangers than the ones which the Church is actually facing in that age. Thus in our intellectually sloppy, all-about-my-feelings age, we are warned against being too Unrelational and Scientific. Clever one, that Screwtape.

Not that I'm comparing Donald Miller to the devil - an over-sylogised, cold & hyper-rational faith is no faith at all. But it does little good to warn an alcoholic against the dangers of drinking too much water...
Brett said…
Sometimes, (and I mean this in the most inoffensive way possible) I feel that the best thing for a man can be a good old fashioned ass whoopin' to bring him back down to the world that the rest of us live in. I understand that you are a smart dude. Congrats. I don't believe Miller is excusing theology and its place in our lives at all, but rather, pointing to the mystery behind it. I, we, and you will all find ourselves one day in a place where the curtain will finally be drawn, and in that moment, I believe we will all realize that each and every one of our "theologies" were fairly f'ed up. So, is it our theology that saves us? No. Is it Jesus by his wonderful grace? Yes. Does any person who has ever lived on the planet understand that fully? No. Lets not act like we do, but rather be in awe and worship because we have a God whom we cannot fully understand because He is on a completely different level than us. He had to "put on flesh" so we would understand his purpose of salvation to us. It is almost like God had to give us a "Salvation for Dummies" guide so we could see his goodness. And I am glad he did. If He didn't, I wouldn't know him... period. I really don't hope you get your ass kicked, unless that is what God has for you. But seriously, I encourage you to put your ipad and iphone away, unplug your desktop, let your text books collect a little dust for an afternoon and go down to the local diner or pub and love on some people. Love on them by trying to understand them and where they are coming from. See for yourself what is more attractive to them, a well articulated summation of who our God is, how He acts, and what contexts he allows himself to do so in, or a dude (you) who listens and serves like Jesus does. The transformation in someone drawn out by God's love cannot be explained. It is a supernatural thing that cannot be corralled into a system. Theology will always have its very important place, but when we hear his good voice calling, and we begin to run toward him, we have to make sure that our shoe laces aren't tied together or we will surely fall.
Dave D said…
I think blogs like these should not be written until you ask the author you're critiquing to clarify what they meant. If Miller meant what he said precisely the way you took it then he is fair game. I think I understand where you are coming from, but I think you lost the heart of Miller's point in semantics. I think you can know Jesus and not have all you're theological ducks in a row (I.E. new Jesus followers, young children, etc.). At the same time, there are many that seem to have all the right beliefs, but bare little or no fruit. Many have a 'modern' approach to faith; right thinking and maybe right theology, but no evidence of a relationship. I think that's more what Miller is getting at. But, I tend to give Miller the benefit of the doubt because based on his writings, I find him to be one who knows God and has very sound theology.
Theo said…
That must have taken a while to write. Was it worth it?
Wes Hargrove said…
Great and thoughtful words here. It boggles my mind when others assume the work of theology to be antithetical to the Kingdom of God, when in fact theology can be a redemptive agent in all aspects of our lives today.

I agree with Brett in that I don't think Miller is "excusing theology and its place in our lives," but the goal of distinguishing theology and mystery is a tough one (similar to the author of this post pointing out the difficulty of separating relationship and theology, or setting theology apart from everything else for that matter). I don't know of a theologian out there (past or present) who could honestly and confidently claim they have reached the end of theology. This assumption comes from a deep seated misunderstanding of the theological task. Instead, the theological task is precisely to engage the mystery of God in every realm of life, to do anything else would be itself missing the point of theology.
Unknown said…
I just don't think this is your best work agreatercourage.
Rob said…
Have we not all known men...preachers, teachers, deacons...who knew the Romans Road backwards and forwards, who memorized the 5 points of Calvinism along with 5 proof texts for each point, who could properly teach on the beatitudes and fruit of the Spirit for hours but who rarely displayed that fruit, expressed those attitudes or dispensed God's grace to others who disagreed with someone over, say, the meaning of a word?

I don't know you any more than I suspect you know Miller so I honestly would not want to attempt to impugn your integrity and I ask that you not impugn Miller's.

The world throws enough mud at those who attempt to understand and live out Christ's teaching without us throwing mud at each other over how one wants to interpret the meaning of a word. Clearly, your idea of its meaning supports your agenda, and his meaning, his. Ironically, you are both right given your own definitions, your intentions.

One thing I think is fair to deduce from both your articles. Donald is trying to breath life into theology so its not just "God, the study of". And you, my brother, just seem to have an axe to grind.

When Donald or any brother "leaves the reservation" on key tenants of biblical theology...then yes, speak the truth in love. But even then, please do so directly to him first. I mean, what if I wrote all this about you and posted it on my web-site and you had to find out from someone else?...how much respect could you possibly have for my motivation? I'm just sayin'...

Check your heart motive on this one brother...please. And I pray that in time you will have a humble, albeit passionate, personal exchange with Donald. And when you do I would hope it would begin with an apology.

Look forward to spending eternity with both of you guys...but right now we've got more important things to be tending to than parsing the meaning of the word "theology" and using our preferred facet of that meaning as a mallet to pound our pulpit with as we stand on a favorite soap box.

I think you are both on the same team...if so, the whole team will benefit when you stop pulling other team-mates down. Please.

In His Amazing Grace,
Rob
I Cor.13:1-8
Unknown said…
I think this is another situation where people are simply debating over the definition of a word, rather than what the actual points are. I appreciate what you are getting at and understand what your concern is with Miller's point, but after reading this I went and read all that Miller wrote again. Miller is simply trying to say that some of us idolize a theology rather than worship our God. And he is right. He is not saying theology should be thrown out, he is merely saying that just like our culture has done with Jesus, we have turned our theology into something that fits our beliefs rather than fits our God. Very well written and parts of it made me question Miller's ideas, but I have to say I disagree.
Derrick said…
Thanks all for the thoughtful comments.

@Brett. Certainly I was not suggesting that Miller was trying to excuse theology from our lives, far from it. My post, despite its excessive length, was simply meant to ask the question whether or not theology was something different than a relation to Jesus, which it seemed to me Miller was implying by saying relationship was "beyond" theology. I was simply trying to say that our relation to Jesus is itself theology. Im certainly appreciative you think Im smart (despite the sarcasm) but quite frankly Im not really sure how to take it in any way other than offensive regarding your ass kicking comments. Perhaps you misunderstood the intent of my post, which was not an attack on Miller at all but rather a nuancing of what he said. At any rate I appreciate your other comments.

@Dave D. Certainly I agree with your point, but that is not what Miller was actually saying. I understand that theological "ducks" can be set in a row and yet no fruitful relationship with Jesus exist, my point was rather that in this sense "true theology" has not taken place because "truth," includes relationship with Christ. Miller, it seems in the article, was placing an distinction there that I disagreed with. If anything I was pushing Miller's thought to what I consider to be its natural conclusion. Im glad that you have a high opinion of Miller, he deserves it. But as far as "benefit of the doubt" goes this is a blog and blogs were meant to voice off the cuff, partially formed, and perhaps inane opinions, and so I offer no apologies for voicing mine here, whether I am ultimately right or wrong.

@Theo yup took me a half an hour, I feel super awesome. Thanks for asking.

@James, well I appreciate you keeping me on my toes but this is a blog, none of my best work goes here, thats not what its for. My best work goes to publishing papers and finishing assignments and the like. Keep reading though, hopefully future posts will be more to your liking.

@Rob, yes of course I have known people like that. But my post was not refuting that at all. Nor indeed do I think that I should have to voice my opinion to Miller directly, as Im quite sure he wouldnt really care what a random blogger has to think of his one article. Also I should say that I am sorry if it seemed I have an axe to grind with Miller, I certainly do not. This post was an off the cuff, half an hour tirade after a friend pointed out the article to me. It was neither meant as a manifesto against him or indeed a full representation of my own thoughts (it is a blog, after all, the most evanescent of mediums). But you are right, I apologize if I was pulling Miller down. This was not my intent, and truly I was critiquing in the name of bettering Miller, of traveling to what I thought should be his natural conclusion. Do not mistake critique for "pulling down," as we all need critique, even (especially) myself as you and others have done on this post. I appreciate your comments and indeed in a similar way to yourself look forward to meeting you in heaven.

@Eddy, Maggery, and Wes Hargrove. Thank you for the kind words and for taking the time to apparently read my whole post. I certainly meant no ill will towards Miller or his work, as you all seemed to have caught clearly. I am humbled by the number of hits this post generated (due of course not to me but to the fact apparently that Donald Miller is in the title of the post ;) and I appreciate your comments and insights.
Derrick said…
I should say to everyone, to put my cards on the table, that this is a blog. I do not mean to be offensive and I am, to the best of my limited abilities, a follower of Christ. But as per the nature of a blog (and please, for those of you who think I should not criticize Miller, keep this in mind because genre counts towards meaning) that blogs by nature are designed to voice spur of the moment opinion and reaction, much as you have reacted to the post itself with candor and immediacy. I offer no apologies as per my opinion, but if I indeed did word something poorly or have not thought something through then I hope truly that you know I take your comments to heart.
Derrick said…
@ Eric Thankyou, I am an avid appreciator of well reasoned comments! I certainly may have taken Miller somewhat out of context, or pulled too hard at a thread that perhaps was simply to be left alone. I should say just to be candid that my post on Miller was not merely "about Miller" per se, but rather the end of this semester I dealt with several classmates who were fairly adamant about the uselessness of theology (ironic, given I go to a seminary) and so the particular direction I perceived in Miller's post was apropos as a springboard for the thoughts which had been lingering in me. While I do not think this is simply a matter of debating over a definition rather than the points, I do appreciate your reasoned disagreement and you actually reading and interacting with what I wrote rather than simply reacting without engagement. Thanks for the comments I hope you keep coming back and keep me on my toes!
Deb said…
Just wanted to say that I read the Donald Miller post and got it from the very beginnning. I am a missionary with a reputable mission agency (my credentials ;) - so I've been screened and found worthy theologically to make it to the field. I believe that Donald Miller is all into good theology, but he's saying that it is more than that. It kind of goes back to religion vs relationship. Jesus wants relationship. The pride that comes with 'being right' has often undone leadership in churches. Being holy and loving and compassionate because Jesus is walking with you moment by moment is the life that is truly abundant. Knowing about it is not the same as knowing Jesus.
christine lewis said…
in my experience someone who is prepared to spend the time it must have taken to write this... just to be right... with all due respect needs to get a life!

my eyes met in the middle half way through reading it.. pllleeese.

bet you got a theoretical identity going on.
christine lewis said…
in my experience someone who is prepared to spend the time it must have taken to write this... just to be right... with all due respect needs to get a life!

my eyes met in the middle half way through reading it.. pllleeese.

bet you got a theoretical identity going on.
christine lewis said…
in my experience someone who is prepared to spend the time it must have taken to write this... just to be right... with all due respect needs to get a life!

my eyes met in the middle half way through reading it.. pllleeese.

bet you got a theoretical identity going on.
Justin Driedger said…
Derrick I think you're full of it. I think it takes "agreatcourage" to stand for something and to lead the way in whatever it might area that might be. It takes "alotlesscourage" to rant on people who are actually doing something whether it be a mentoring program for young men or just showing people that knowing Jesus is more than a theological understanding.

Rather spineless article in my opinion...
Kellie said…
Wow. You have really analyzed this.

Growing up in the church, I had the opportunity to learn a lot of theology.

It's all good to continue increasing your understanding of God, but it isn't until you pray with a stranger in a dr. waiting room, drive a family to jail to visit their father, feed someone who is hungry without caring whether your church was behind it or not, welcome someone who has been ousted by a congregation... that is when you really experience God.

Some people require lots of educated study to meet God. And others will never really have that experience, but will meet God.

I don't feel Donald is saying theology and relationship are mutually exclusive. However, they certainly can be. If you never stop studying and reading and get out and put God's love into action, you have missed half of the whole experience. And until that love becomes action, thus a relationship, then yes, you can certainly carry on and not have a relationship with God, and even be a minister, amazingly enough.
Eddy said…
Derrick,

Unfortunately, people are commenting on this because Donald Miller retweeted it last night, and mocked it. Which makes it increasingly ironic that people are acting like you're the one attacking him.

I find it disturbing that both Miller and his fans would disregard some very valid spiritual concerns raised here and respond with that kind of venom.

As I said before, I've been a huge Donald Miller fan for many years. In fact, I credit Blue Like Jazz for being the catalyst of some great spiritual reformations. But, we need to test things that other Christians say, and test them against Scripture. I think Maggery hits the real issue on the head when pointing out that we live in an all-about-my-feelings age, which disregards theology that is good and true. A theology that doesn't exclude relationships, but serves to benefit them.

I think people often underestimate how serious Paul's warnings were against false teaching, and our response is often tame against it. I thought your post was fairly gracious towards Miller, and it doesn't seem like you have an axe to grind at all. You are simply writing a rational response to something you saw. To me, it's often what Christian thinkers don't say which bothers me more than what they do say, once you take their words to unspoken conclusions. Theology is valuable to our spiritual growth as Christ followers, and dare I say, changes both our minds and our hearts as we draw closer to Him and others. It's strange that in encouraging people to "open their minds" about what a relationship with Christ entails, I'm seeing a very closed-minded stance on how theology can be transformational in our lives, and how important it is that we have a good foundation.

All that aside, I've read this and a few other posts here, and I think you might have a new blog follower.
Cori said…
I just wonder which post, yours or Miller's, leaves people wanting more of God? Miller's post left me longing to dig into my Bible and spend time in prayer. Yours will require I attend seminary to understand what you are even saying. I think that is exactly Miller's point. We can know all the right stuff, which I'm sure you do, but totally miss out on the relationship with God and turn everyone else off from knowing God in the process. I can't wait for heaven when we can all just be with God and stop arguing about how to get there!
So, what do we say about Liberal Theologians who know all of about Theology, the intricacies of doctrines, yet, still deny the power of Christ, or the Holy Spirit, or the existence of the Triune God?

In my humble opinion, I think it's articles like this, and others, that are hurting real dialogue within the church.

Certainly, a person must not know theology (study of God) in order to have relationship with Him. And clearly, the study of God does not always lead to salvation, due to many different things. Studying the doctrines of the Church throughout church history and knowing them through, does not equivocate to the hearing and reading of Scripture, as Scripture is how God has chosen to reveal Himself to us, not Theology.

To quote Paul, "Salvation comes by faith, and faith by hearing the Word."

To deny the power of Scripture, is heresy. But, to deny the power of understanding theology, I don't have a problem with.

I'm a Seminary grad who still hasn't figured out Theology. Is my relationship with God invalid, or not right? Absolutely not. To use marriage as a continued illustration: I don't understand my wife, her motives, her heart, her thinking. But, am I less married to her? Absolutely not. And 50 years from now, I hope to know more about her, but I will not know everything and what I think I know will not always be right.

Sanctification is a process that is includes theology as we discover more about our God through His Word. For a season, I claimed Calvinism, then I attended a Nazarene church, which helped me question my position as a 5-pointer. I came to realize that Calvinism/Arminianism and the like are just issues between believers, and my understanding of them makes me no more Christian than any other believer. What matters is my mission, my relationship. The obedience of my stubborn heart, the desires of my selfish heart. Am I in-line with God's desires? Do I serve the poor, hungry, widowed, and orphaned? Am I keeping myself undefiled by the world?

I like reading up on Theology. It has enhanced my understanding of who God is and how He works, but frankly, understanding without relationship means nothing. Just like studying Math and being a Counselor are incongruent. Math does not help you relate to people. And relating to people does not make you good at Math.
Wow, a lot of comments on here really didn't get the point. In fact, they proved your point about the need for clear, accurate definitions. Perhaps a few good lessons on rhetoric, logic, and how to read well would've helped some commenters, but what can you do with anti-intellectualism?

Oh, and Donald, way to be dismissive. Not helpful.
David said…
I would say that the theological concepts of Incarnation or Trinity that you mention are less important than what these concepts tell us about God. That, to me, is what Donald Miller meant in his post.

We can have theological knowledge about concepts of God, and even rake others across the coals for not "getting it," but all the while miss the fundamental point. I don't read Miller as claiming that theology and relationship are ALWAYS exclusive of one another, but that they often can be. With that in mind, we shouldn't get all proud of our accomplishments when we get through seminary. That's all--no need for postmodern revelations or sophisticated gymnastics.

The Pharisees thought that Jesus was anti-intellectual, no doubt.
No, the Pharisees thought Jesus was blaphemous. As for the intellect, Jesus danced circles around them and showed them what for from the age of twelve. The charge of anti-intellectualism is to expose that there is a prejudice dismissal going on--this should be rectified in catechesis, but the church hasn't been doing this well for decades, so this ignorance shouldn't be a surprise. Get off the milk and move to meat, to praphrase Paul.
Halden said…
Looks to me like Donald Miller also intended this as a response to your post:

http://donmilleris.com/2010/05/20/having-right-theology-does-not-mean-you-know-god/

Whatever. You're right and he's, well, trying to be cool in a very PDX way. That's pretty much it.
a. steward said…
I just want to make sure that Brett's comment doesn't slide by without being acknowledged as one of the most presumptive, petty, and self-righteous comments I have ever seen in the blogosphere, which tends in general to produce some pretty smug affectations.

So yeah, Derrick, go love on people. Then write a freaking book about how much you love on people. And convince a bunch of Californian poseurs who read it to move up to Portland and stage a hostile takeover of the Horsebrass. EFF!!

But seriously, way to keep your reflections confined to the text (an additionally difficult task when dealing with a confessional memoir like BLJ). You admirably refrain from making personal insinuations. I think you model well here the real relational core of the theological task at its best: attending to one another's confession in an attentive and serious manner, because it makes a difference whether the gospel we're spewing is Jesus' or another's. Good work here - keep it up.
Anonymous said…
One Christian tearing down another Christian just because he happened to write one blog out of many that wasn't up to A++ standard?

Who can perform at an A++ standard 100 percent of the time?
Derrick said…
@David (Horstkoetter), Halden, and Adam

I really appreciate you guys giving me a fair shake amidst a storm that I am still shocked to have occurred on my little blog. Its nice to have some level headed people I trust around here, and Its nice see several friendly faces show up to defend your honor so to speak (Im not just saying this, Im not used to so many negative comments from people who havent really taken the time to read coming all at once, and honestly its stressful!)

On the one hand like they say no press is bad press, but quite frankly despite the annoying tendency of many here to have not actually read what I wrote I do agree with them that this is not my best blog post, but I never expected a need for it to be, and Im honestly a little annoyed that something I wrote in 30 minutes about one small article is what is getting me the attention when its not even what I really like to write about, kind of ridiculous.

At any rate I tweeted Donald Miller that me and him should grab some beer but he politely turned me down so we all should grab some this summer and talk about theological craziness.
Halden said…
Glad to hear that you've embraced beer. When last we hung out I don't remember that being your thing. So yeah, we totally can do that this summer.

And I must also second Adam's comment about Brett's lunacy. Seriously, dude, you don't have a fucking clue about "loving on people" if this comment really represents what you think. Grow up and/or get a life.
Derrick said…
@Halden

Haha ya Ive seen the light! And its is glorious and full of hops. I repent of my former Beerless ways in dust and ashes
Halden said…
Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, king of the universe who brings forth beer from the earth.
Zack Allen said…
Geez, did any of those naysaying commenters actually *read* the article? I found myself shouting, "Yes! Thank you!" at the close of each paragraph only to find myself completely speechless at so many of the comments.

I agree that "to know a set of facts *about* someone" is not the same thing as actually *knowing* someone (a simple illustration could prove the point), but that this does NOT (NOT NOT NOT) mean that theology and relationship with God are mutually exclusive enterprises (that you can have one without the other).

I get a little frustrated when someone with my church community stands up to speak and begins with something like, "I'm not real big on the theology stuff or anything, but..." What? What do you mean "the theology stuff"? Don't you realize that *everything* is theological? EVERYTHING!

But it's not their fault though. They are only repeating what they've heard others they look up to say. Nonetheless, it needs to stop and understanding needs to be brought in regards to this within churches.

That's all Derrick's doing here folks. He's not tearing anyone down. He's repeated again and again that he admires Donald Miller, even explicitly stating that he does not intend to attack him.

So many of the comments perpetuate the same misunderstanding that Derrick brings to light without actually *dealing* with the material. Dogmatic expression begetting dogmatic expression. And you think Derrick is the one with the problem?

Further, do you not all realize the irony in such comments? I mean do you not see that in saying such things you are guilty of the same? The only difference (besides Derrick not doing what he's been accused of) is that you believe *you* are justified. You come here and attempt to correct someone about 'correcting in love,' but fail to do it yourself. Board in your eye?

stay salty,
>>zack
a. steward said…
Just like Uncle Seymour always said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j12jG6bUDfo
Marie said…
I have only one thing to say and that is this: Derrick, I'm glad that you are thinking critically of what you read. Few people in this world do, and from what i know it seems that even fewer Christians ever question what they are being "taught" through various means. To be honest your blog was a bit over my head in parts, but I know your heart and I know that you simply wanted to pose a question. It's too bad that people immediately took a defensive position the minute you questioned Miller. let's remember people that no one is perfect, not even Miller. Each of us should be questioning everything we hear, everything we read, each "worship" song that we sing. I want to know God. The true God, for who He really is, but I can't do that if i take everything i read about and hear as the absolute truth. Unfortunately most people are too lazy to read, and think critically about thing. It can take a lot of time and effort, but you will learn the most I think when you ask questions. anyways, props to you Derrick for thinking, and measuring everything according to the Bible!
Brad A. said…
Well said, Derrick. I wonder if Miller's realized his book - and even his own blog post - constitute a propositional theology of the very type he so casually (and ignorantly) dismisses.
Anonymous said…
Wow. I see very few commenters took the time to actually read your post.

I surprised that Donald Miller and his fans care enough of what you think to tweet about it, but not enough to actually read through and - gasp! - maybe understand what your saying.

And why does no one care about your other posts (such as your newer and excellent one on Maximus' Ontology of deification)?
Derrick said…
@solaintellectum I know its ridiculous! I said the same thing why does Donald Miller and his fans care what some random blogger with an obscure, hardly read blog think? But they do, apparently, oh how they do.

And I share the same fascination about how a relatively inane post on Miller generates so much heat when I put a mere half an hour into it but no one reads my more involved posts, which is where my heart truly lies. Of course the more involved posts are harder and less immediately interesting per se, but still its annoying how consumer preference works like that.
Hannah said…
As a fly on the wall in this conversation, it seems like, arguments aside, this conversation has boiled down to Donald Miller diehards attacking a blogger for formulating a thoughtful, unmalicious perspective. I like Don Miller, but when did it become okay for "lovers of God" to adore one man so much that they would demonize another? This has been one of the most intolerant, immature, and (may I say?) idiotic "coversations" (read: flamethrowing contest) I have ever stumbled upon. If you love Jesus like you say you do, and love "Christian dialogue" as much as you profess, don't hate on a brother.
Anonymous said…
This morning I woke up to Miller's tweet about this responsive blog. And again, he makes a great point. Big speaking, wordy people might learn a thing or two if they get a chance to read it (no offense to those with large vocabularies, wish I were one of ya’). By definition theology is "the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially: the study of God and of God's relation to the world" (Webster's). Theology is just a study, theory of the unexplainable. The whole reason theology of any kind exists is because of sin, meaning since the fall we’ve been separated from God, all these various religions developed, people got confused about God and theology comes into play to attempt, again attempt to increase our understanding of God. Again, Miller is right about the FACT there are children and very simple people who have had deep, profound experiences with God that had NOTHING to do with theology, but their faith isn’t less deep or powerful because they don’t have a grasp on theology. I highly doubt God will ever be concerned if they have a stance on Calvinism.

Over and over Jesus made it perfectly clear that his story is about having a relationship with us and faith like a child, pure and simple. In the end, all God wants to know is your heart and its true, beautiful, real encounter with the Holy God; making theology extra, simply extra. So, if sin had never entered the world we wouldn't have any need for theology, right? However, regardless of sin we’d still have a relationship with Jesus, again proving that theology isn’t necessary, not to diminish its helpfulness, but that it isn’t the end all. Each of us has seen what happens when you get so wrapped in trying to put God in a theological box making your faith look clinical, unfeeling and ineffective. I’m not against theology, or the pursuit of understanding, but it comes to a very simple truth- Jesus- Jesus because he isn’t a theory, He’s a fact. Hence the reason 12 year Japanese children who had been believers for a short while could die on crosses for not denying Christ. For when the heart hears the Lord truly for the first time it is falling in love and theology has nothing to do with it…absolutely nothing. It’s about a relationship with the living God, simple.
~Hannah Walker
STOP using websters if you want to talk about theology, use one of it's own definitions: faith seeking understanding. This should fix some of the ignorant, categorical ills. Or, you could use another definition: how the church speaks.
a. steward said…
Hannah and David -

In a sense, isn't the impasse in this conversation illustrated very clearly by the use of a Webster's definition? It comes down to definitions. If that is what we mean by theology (and it is for alot of Christians), faithful Christians have to contend that God is not an object within the universe about whom we could venture a hypothesis that would be more or less true. In this sense, Hannah, I would totally agree with you. You can only know God if you have met him, and he isn't found unless he wants to be found.

That said, I think we should contend for another definition of theology. Theology is not trying to figure out how we should rationalize our experience of God (Liberalism) or how we can condense the Bible into digestible, synthetic concepts (Fundamentalism). Theology is rather one of our responses to God's invitation to participate in the conversation that goes on within the communion of the Trinity; or talking to and about Jesus.
Jon Fox said…
It looks like the real disagreement brought on by your more-charitable-than-necessary article is one of definition--in this case of the term *theology*.

Miller defines theology as scholastic, propositional knowledge about God, which is basically irrelevant to personal relationship.

You define theology as personal, relational knowledge of God, which He reveals to us by grace. (right?)

Given the only recently developed connotation of 'western liberal scholasticism' Miller is thinking of when he says "theology", I'd say you're pretty much in the right. More importantly, nobody seriously involved in this discussion seems to disagree about anything except which word to use in referring to what we all agree is authentic Christianity. So the whole argument (one you obviously weren't looking to start) is pretty damn stupid.

You are a bit verbose here (no worries, it's your blog after all; but that may explain why some people who read your article (or didn't) missed the point.) Still, people learn best when they're taught simply. When asked to summarize the theological content of "Church Dogmatics", Karl Barth replied,
"Jesus loves me; this I know,
for the Bible tells me so."

Now that's theology.
Andrew said…
Jon Fox just made the point that I would. Your post is actually the answer to Miller's problem - we remember that 'theology' means the knowledge of God in all senses, mind and heart, not to be split apart or opposed to each toher. He is addressing a real point, but encouraging anti-intellectualism is not helpful.
Derrick, why are you wasting your time trying to give some nuance to the point where love and theology meet? Why don't you do something useful instead like post aggressive threats in the comment section of somebody's blog?

Does Donald Miller know that his readers (your commenters) are so against worshiping God with all your mind?
btw - I'm highlighting a few bloggers at the end of this month in a little blog-project I've called "Theology: Does It Matter?"

You and I have never met, but you have already written your contribution. With your permission, I would like to excerpt and link to this post. Well done.
Derrick said…
@Jon Fox I have always loved that story on Barth and the quote, thanks for bringing it up here! it along with your summary definitely encapsulates my points well. And I completely agree, the late/recent arrival of "western scholasticism" is a peculiar animal for Miller to identify the essential nature of theology with. In fact what Miller seems to be doing is identifying the accelerated (and perverted) form of scholasticism which began to arise in the renaissance and move towards greater fruition in the Enlightenment through Descartes, then e.g. Hobbes and Locke and so on and identify this peculiar stream of tradition with the essential nature of theology. Perhaps it would be fair to say that Miller has simply identified the Fundamentalist take on theology as the only legitimate definition, and proceeds to critique and resituate from there. You are absolutely right to point out that this whole thing circle around definitions (and you are also right about my verboseness, I have that tendency, especially when I do not edit).

@Charismanglican thank you I am honored to be a portion of your blog project! I only wished I had edited this post more so it would be less inadequate (maybe Ill secretly edit it anyway, hopefully thats not against some secret blogger code).
Rob said…
I want to thank you for your thoughtful response to the comment I posted late Thursday. I believe your response to my post answered a lot of my questions and frankly calmed a lot of the concerns that compelled me to comment on any blog for the first time in a year or more.

Your point that this is a personal (though notably public) blog and that as such it can understandably be held to a different standard diffused my frustration quite a bit. I mean, they are like a hybrid of a journal/diary and a twitter feed. Your additional point that it was also the release of some pint up frustrations with others in your personal circle of academia also sheds light on your motivation...not so much to grind an axe but perhaps to do some therapeutic venting. We are all learning the hard way when we push the limits of these new mediums of communication and brother I want you to know my heart goes out to you...your response and the spirit of your response conveyed a deep sense of value for relationship both between man and God and man with each other. Thank you for taking the time to respond and know that my frustration has been replaced with sympathy and empathy as you endure posts (assuming you even continue to read them...hopefully you got this far for some more encouragement!) that are so devoid of the beatitudes and fruit of the Spirit that they set a new bar on the ironic scale given their stated purpose. As I have read the other comments, both in support and in opposition, my heart grows even heavier that most everyone is missing the point and in fact, making the point at the same time. Its not just your advocacy of what you believe is true, its how you advocate for those truths that expose the spiritual fruit that is present...or, as Galatians 5 also points out, the works of the flesh. Sadly, with only a few exceptions on both sides of the argument I'm seeing a lot more of the works of the flesh than fruits of the Spirit. Regardless of who is right in God's eyes...He must be sorely disappointed in both sides.

I am also frankly a little surprised that Miller posted the link to your blog. I'd be willing to bet real money (only theoretically of course!) that he regrets having done so as well. To be honest I didn't think you would respond to my comment...but since you did maybe its not so crazy of an idea to post some calm rational exhortations to Miller as well...who knows, the two of you could come to better understanding of each others concerns regarding both the danger of divorcing theology from relationship and divorcing relationship from theology and realize that both sides have very timely, critically important concerns to warn the Kingdom about. Hopefully in the end we can see that, at least in this case its not an either or, but a both/and that will best serve those who desire to fully submit, surrender and sync themselves to the Holy Spirit as we seek to bring Jesus glory through everything we do.
Shawn said…
Do you have any real friends? You've missed some obvious understandings of what Don was getting at. You could have simply said, Don was referring to a common misconception that theology is just propositional facts. However theology is really..." and it wouldn't have taken so long or been so mean.
I think one reason why Miller's apparent hostility toward a "theological" approach to being a follower of Jesus resonates with his readers is that apart from what some theologians take themselves to be doing, it just looks like theology is an academic discipline. There are academic departments of philosophy, anthropology, biology... . Since theology is taken to be among the scholarly disciplines, it seems almost a stupid category mistake to make it important for, say, a relationship with God. It does not help that "theological texts" are often even harder to read than texts in the other scholarly disciplines. Furthermore, what activity goes on in departments of theology? Isn't it primarily "intellectual" in the modernist sense? The other stuff goes on in, e.g., schools of social work.

That being said, I take your point that theology should not just be a mere scholarly discipline for academic departments and specialists and obscurantist authors, but is a kind of all-encompassing discipline that bears on the whole life of both the religious and irreligious. This might leave some people unimpressed, however. Not only is the statement itself a sort-of academic position not agreed on by everyone in the discipline, but people in other disciplines can make seemingly analogous statements; e.g., 'everything is anthropological.' Everything is only anthropological in the sense that anthropology as an academic discipline might have something to say about everything. You (or whoever) would need to show how theology differs. I think I understand how you think it does differ, that people engage in "theological activity" in a way they don't engage in "anthropological activity," although the anthropologists might disagree. Perhaps theology is closer to something like ethics. People who don't like ethics often "have" ethics, same with philosophy in the broadest sense.

For the record, I got here through Halden's blog and not, God forbid, Miller's Twitter account.
Anonymous said…
Thank you Derrick for your post. I agree with a previous post that Miller's assumptions regarding theology are a further reaction to propositional theology that seeks to explain away the Mystery of the Triune God and also seems to operate under the assumption that relationship with God operates within the realm of experience as opposed to knowledge of who God is and what he has done - as if that kind of dichotomy really exists. relationship is utterly theological. To miss that connection is to continue to be held captive by our cultures categories of thinking. Peace.
Derrick said…
@ Shawn

My friend Halden gave me some great advice about how to sift through comments to choose whom to respond to (especially among negative comments) and how to leave a majority alone and let them pass. I even mostly passed over the guy who was implying he wanted me to get my ass kicked (it was just too absurd, but luckily my friend Adam had the decency to rebut him for me). At any rate as per Halden's advice I have been sifting through the comments and skipping over most. But I choose you.

As you are clearly a family man with a nice picture, I am a bit shocked that you want to set such a poor example to them. Sure, you disagree with me, I get it, a lot of others have too. But asking if I have any "real friends"...what does that ad hominem have anything to do with it? What are we in 3rd grade? You going to take my lunch money next?

Or saying that I simply missed "obvious points" of Miller's post, nice way to avoid doing any real interaction. And from the looks of things many have agreed with my comments, as also many have disagreed. At the very least that should lead to the concession that, whether I am right or wrong, the points are not so obvious or pandering to your clear position of superiority. The only thing Ill give you is that my post could have been shorter, but who cares? Its my blog, I write things on there that I want. Ive harped on this already, I wrote the post in around a half hour with no editing, just writing. Could it be parred down? Sure. Am I going to take the effort on that post? Nope. This wasnt a paper Im trying to publish nor was it for an assignment, and quite frankly even for my blog standards it was off the cuff. Yet given these things I dont understand how the length of my post could be the object of your scorn, I didnt force you to read it but you did anyway (actually Im not really convinced you did, but Ill give you the benefit of the doubt). And besides the length of my post was an attempt to exegete and do justice to Miller's own words, rather than circumspectly just asserting my own opinion haphazardly over against his, I chose to take this route to make sure I understood him, a courtesy you have not extended to me.

Oh and quite frankly, I felt my post was very charitable and benign. Maybe next time Ill sprinkle flowers and puppy dog pictures throughout so to you its less "mean."

K good talk.
Derrick said…
@Joshua Thats definitely a great point about "what kind of universality," and its something that I think I will definitely try and talk about in a later post. Im glad some people can actually give me constructive advice and criticism without all the craziness, thanks for the comments!
@ Derrick

It would be great if you pursued this topic further. One related question might be: Does theology purport to be an academic discipline?

It certainly is an academic discipline; theologians do much more reading than laity, they publish in journals, they give lectures, teach classes, invent new words, learn Greek, have closed scholarly societies, etc.

I take your view to be that theology is this and something else, something like right relationship to God.

If I understand the general structure of your view (that theology somehow contains within it the life and activity which is commends), then I do see an analogy with ethics and perhaps general philosophy. We can't but help to hold ethical positions, act as if certain ethical principles obtained, and so on.

I wonder - and here I'll end my unsolicited musings - whether you think such an analogy with ethics can be made, or if theology is still more sui generis.
roger flyer said…
Forgive me. I am a boomer. I read 'blue like jazz' and I liked it, but I would never dream of going out for a beer with him and asking him his ideas on theology!

He's a modern beatnik who loves Jesus.
And he's cool and I think we knew his 'theology' before he felt the need to tell us in an editorial...

Quoting Gob from Arrested Development: "Come on! He's the guy who hangs out at Reed College!"
JT said…
A few thoughts. First, this entry has clearly struck a cord, and I don't think we can suggest that the volume of responses has to do purely with people wanting to defend their idols. This is a real issue, and I don't think its simply a matter of misunderstanding on either side (although I'm sure there's some of that as well, which I don't pretend to be immune from).

Second, I'm not entirely convinced that "ideas" or "concepts" always ground or even always accompany our actions. That is, I'm not sure that our ideas reflect the reality of the situation. With regard to theology this means that our theology may have very little to do with how we act, or better, with our way of being. There may be a gap between what we often consider to be our governing ideas or "situated horizons of meaning" and the manner in which we live our life, interacting with God and others.

Third, if this is so, then we would need to shift our focus, or at least enlarge our scope beyond "meaning" and the interminable play of signs to include something like "efficacy" or "power", and to attempt to understand grace as a way of dwelling in and living from a certain kind of power, namely God's eternal life or "love". The main focus here would be on the transformative experience of life with God, which would issue in acts or "works of love" (but would by no means be reducible to them) as a natural outcome of the way of life we live.

If the main point is dwelling with God, living from and in Him, the particular theological articulation of this life would have its place, but it would be far less important than we often take it to be. Discipleship would not be theological per se, although a theology could be derived from it and contribute to it. Rather, discipleship, and thus the process of maturing in Christ, would have to do with moving deeper and deeper into the power of God's love, which would become one's own modus operandi. Importantly, theology (no matter how correct) could easily be used to divest oneself and others of this life, to move people in away from the kingdom of God. We can see this in many cases in which the point is to win an argument or to seek glory for oneself, etc.

I'm well aware that this entry could be considered an attempt--and a rather sorry one--at some form of theology. But the point is not the post certainly, or the ideas expressed therein, but the invitation, expressed in and as the Gospel, to a new and eternal way of being. Thus, if one were to misunderstand this post, or even "good theology," in such a way as to move further into God's eternal life, wouldn't that be all the better than a correct understanding? Wouldn't it matter less that we get it right than that we enter into God's life ourselves and that we can thereby invite others into that same life?

Theology in this case would have a role to play but it would be constantly reworked according to the loving demands of the situation. Opening the kingdom in which we dwell to others in whatever way possible would be our primary objective, and this may sometimes require theology.
Tyler Wittman said…
Derrick,

You make a good point here, don't listen to the bandwagon.

One of the absolute most annoying things about evangelical Christianity is how when someone has their sacred cow skewered, they immediately react with a holier-than-thou anti-intellectualism. Even when the skewering in question is congenial and patient!
Annie Dugas said…
I am very troubled by some of the comments written in light of Derrick’s blog post. I will only highlight a few. (Sadly none of my objections actually addresses what Derrick wrote, but they are important enough to highlight and many other people have done a great job providing insight on his work already.)

1. I am one of Derrick's close friends, and I have to laugh at some of the perceptions people have created about him. Lest I remind you this entire conversation has been through reading and writing words. One has the luxury of ranting off to computer keys rather than to a person's face. Derrick enjoys The Simpsons and Family Guy, and has a horrible sense of direction. But he is also kind, gentle, and hilarious. Just because someone uses big words and critiques a popular Christian writer doesn't mean you can create any sort of perception of him as a person that fits with your emotional reaction to the blog.

2. I am genuinely concerned about the common perception of studying theology. It is insulting to the church. Throughout centuries people have devoted (and some lost) their lives so that the truth of Christ could be preserved. How do you think the doctrine of the trinity was developed? Or concept of as God being both completely God and completely man at the same time? Study. Debates. Creeds. These solid foundations enrich our relationship with Christ and allow us to actually know the God we claim to worship. Christ who works through the church has blessed the church with knowledge about him. Let us not waste these gifts.

I would like to end with a quote from Grenz and Olson's book, Who Needs Theology?:

"If the main benefit of Christianity is feeling good, and if anything that detracts from that joy or comfort is automatically suspected of being unspiritual, then how does Christianity differ from a cult or from drugs or psychotherapy? One major way in which Christianity surely differs from these is that it makes truth claims. It purports to be based on a narrative about reality-- God's self revelation and historical salvation of people. In that case, however, feeling should adjust to reality-- not the other way around."
Derek, thanks for allowing me to use your blog post as part of the Theology: Does it Matter? project.

It occurs to me that I have no way to contact you, don't know your last name, etc.

Would you shoot me an email with a short bio, or a link to someplace where you have a bio?

Thanks.
elvisraygun [at] gmail [dot] com